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Feminism is Alive and Well ... Even Sarah Palin Wants to Be One
July 9, 2010 Gloria Steinem, grande dame of the feminist movement, and Jehmu Greene, Women's Media Center director, discuss the state of feminism with Katie Couric.
KATIE COURIC: Let me ask you a question somebody asked on Facebook. Jaclyn Koch says on Facebook, “Do [you] think that feminism is still considered a bad word today? I think the term used to really get a bad rap. But today it seems things are beginning to level out.” What say you?
GLORIA STEINEM: It’s interesting to me because is Rush Limbaugh gonna call [Sarah Palin] a “feminazi” like he calls me? Obviously feminism is winning, otherwise these women wouldn’t be calling themselves feminists. So the truth of the matter is that, in public opinion polls more women consider themselves feminists than consider themselves Republicans, evangelicals, or even Democrats.
COURIC: I thought it was worth reminding people what the definition of feminism is because when I looked up it says that feminism is the “doctrine advocating social, political, and all other rights equal to men.” Hard to argue with that, isn’t it?
STEINEM: Yeah, but it’s been demonized by the Rush Limbaughs of the world who say “feminazi” and so on. So if people go to the dictionary and see what it means, most folks agree. Men too.
JEHMU GREENE: And I think if you look at the Millennial Generation and what is so inspiring of the generations coming up is they are the most diverse, the most tolerant generation this country has ever seen. A lot of these issues around putting feminism in a silo in the way that Rush has tried and other folks have tried, are going to be pushed back by these younger generations.
COURIC: At the same time, don’t you feel like feminism the movement has lost a bit of steam? I didn’t find the statistics, but of course you all more than anyone, are familiar with young women of an early age basically eschewing the whole notion of feminism and not considering themselves feminists.
STEINEM: I agree the word feminism has been demonized, even though it has huge number of adherents. But if you say “women’s movement,” it’s 90 percent of young women versus about 70 percent of older women who say that they support it, so it’s actually more younger women than older women.
GREENE: And that is the power of social media. When you spend any time on Twitter or on Facebook, you see the level of connections and organizing that are happening. The medium is very attractive to women and I think allows us to, in this changing media landscape climate, to really use social media as a way of continuing to rebuild or continuing to build the movement. That’s where I think you’re getting those numbers as far as 90 percent of younger women who will engage and call themselves a part of the woman’s community, woman’s movement.
COURIC: So you think it’s a misconception that many young people don’t consider themselves feminists?
STEINEM: Yes. It’s part of the idea that the movement is over. The opposition first takes the form of “You can’t do that. It’s against biology, God, Freud, something. You can’t do that. It’s not necessary. It’s impossible.”
And then the second form of opposition is “Well, it used to be necessary, but it’s not anymore.” And we’re in that stage. So I think young women should sue for libel because they are so distorted in their real views by this idea that they don’t support their own equality.
COURIC: So you don’t think there’s any merit to the argument that feminism is out of step with modern American women? Because you hear that argument increasingly, as you know. I think it’s really been circulating for the last five to 10 years.
STEINEM: No. No, because I travel all the time so I’m preserved from that. Time magazine has I think declared feminism, the women’s movement, dead 27 times. So declaring us dead is part of the opposition, but actually it keeps growing and growing and growing in real terms.
COURIC: Jehmu, there’s a Twitter question that has to do with sort of the sexualization of women. I get bothered by how -- and maybe it’s my imagination, maybe it’s because I’m getting older and I have two daughters -- the objectification of women seems to be so in your face these days, whether it’s with artists, rap stars. You know that’s kind of a tired argument. But it’s still very prevalent in pop culture. And even in the way women are presenting themselves, it seems to be they would rather be viewed as “hot” than “accomplished.” And is there any method to my madness here? And do you sense that in popular culture as well?
GREENE: Clearly there is a huge problem with the sexualization of girls and women in the media and we talked a little bit about the images that are funneled into girls from very young ages in G‐rated movies. But when you ask the questions to especially high school students, which is something we’ve been doing at the Women’s Media Center, there is an ability from a media literacy standpoint, that many of these young women are starting to separate those images from their reality. And I think social media is contributing to that media literacy. A lot of the conversations that are going on with high school girls are pushing back against those sexualized images and that is a real opportunity for growth within the women’s movement. But at the end of the day, it is not being generated by young women.
STEINEM: But if it is, more power to them. Because being body‐proud, having control or feeling power in sexuality, there’s nothing wrong with that. In a generalized way, the cultures that require women and girls to cover up their bodies are worse for women in which women can uncover their bodies. So I think some of it may be age because, for me, say, I grew up in a time in which to be overtly sexual was dangerous because you got to be the wrong kind of – you know – anything could happen to you. So we may fear for young girls who are actually expressing their sexuality and have a right to.
GREENE: But I do think that, if you look at rap music in particular, that there are decisions being made in small executive offices by mostly white men about the images that they want to see their artists producing. How they show/portray African American young women is problematic. Again I don’t think that is being driven by the artists or driven by the community. In many ways, that’s driven from a purely profit‐centered reality of these executives. And that is where we’re seeing a lot of young women finally finding their voice and pushing back against those images.
COURIC: But at the same time, I do think there is that same old adage that sex sells and that looks matter in our culture. It’s a cultural medium. I was thinking about Sarah McLachlan, who I love as a singer (and I still like her, I’m not holding this against her). But I noticed she sort of transformed her image in keeping with what a modern pop star "should" look like.
STEINEM: Well, especially in the music world because the singers are so young. I mean if you’re 22 and you’re trying to enter the field, you’re considered old. So the question is whether she did this of her own free will or whether she was forced into it.
COURIC: Yeah, whether somebody said “Hey, if you want to be more marketable, you need to sex yourself up a bit.”
STEINEM: And that’s really the question. And it’s not always easy to figure out. But it’s very important we tune into ourselves to find the inner authority to say what it is I really want and then do it. I must say there is one advantage of being a member of the wrong group ‐- which we all are here ‐- which is that nothing you do is exactly right, this frees you to do whatever you want. Because you really come to the conclusion that there is no right way for the wrong group. If you know what I mean. And therefore for us to be, to have some sort of self authority, why not? Why not?
COURIC: We had a Twitter question that was kind of along these lines. Bobby Rivers TV tweets, “I feel that shows like 'The Bachelorette' are a whoopee cushion on the seat of the feminist movement.”
STEINEM: Haha. Say that again.
COURIC: “I feel that shows like 'The Bachelorette' are a whoopee cushion on the seat of the feminist movement.” Gloria’s opinion on that?
STEINEM: You know the shows are incredibly stupid but what is most offensive about them is that it’s not equal opportunity stupidity.
COURIC: Well they have “The Bachelor” too.
STEINEM: I know, but there are many more women competing for the handsome, rich guy than there are men competing for a woman on these shows.
COURIC: Is that true? I don’t know the numbers.
GREENE: Oh yes. By far.
STEINEM: By far. So I have a kind of motto. Which is… You probably can’t say it on…
COURIC: It’s a webshow Gloria. Go for it. Unless it’s super risqué.
STEINEM: Well it starts with “s” … It's always better if it’s equally divided. It’s still a problem, but if it’s equally divided, it’s at least not a political problem.
COURIC: All right, you’re gonna have to explain that to me later. I can’t believe, Gloria, that you’re 76 years old.
STEINEM: Yes, I can’t believe it either.
The Feminist Movement Going Forward
COURIC: As you look back on your goals for the feminist movement, on what you really wanted for girls and women in this country, how do you feel about where we are today?
STEINEM: Because I travel much of the time, I have the opportunity to see how far along we are. To hear women, and men too, telling me their stories and how much their lives have changed and so I’m just constantly nourished by that.
I do think that many of us underestimated the force of the opposition. I kind of thought growing up that we had a democracy and if we got a majority support for issues we would win the issues, which turns out not to be the case, because we’ve had majority support for issues for a long time and we don’t have them embedded in our government. You know sometimes people ask me “What are you most proud of in your life?” And I always say I haven’t done it yet. I mean I’m living in the future actually. I’m encouraged by Jehmu. I’m encouraged by you. You will be here. You will be here when I’m not. And that feels good.
COURIC: What are you most disappointed about?
STEINEM: I think that we haven’t made a dent, as you see in that article’s title “The End of Men,” in the idea that somebody has to win. We’re still living in an “either/or” culture, not in an “and” culture. We’re still ranking instead of linking. We still have a sort of hierarchical view of life instead of a circle. And actually for most of human history, we’ve lived the other way. It’s been about linking, not ranking. The circle was the paradigm of society.
I’m most disappointed that it’s not part of discussion. That, for instance, the media still views objectivity as being even‐handedly negative. And doesn’t really report that much on solutions. And especially reports on things that are equally divided.
I noticed that in Japan they discuss important issues with at least three people. And that’s like a drink of water in the desert to think there are three different views, instead of only two views fighting with each other. And in the case of most issues, there are seven sides or 14 sides. And I’m disappointed that we don’t have the imagination of cooperation, equality, community. That we’re still in this old paradigm.
COURIC: Do you think that’s because the nascent feminist movement was in some ways based on anger, outrage and the desire to help women progress that was threatening, so threatening, to the status quo that it almost positioned the sides against each other instead of a more conciliatory movement? Is that just the way movements are born?
STEINEM: No. If you asked me what we did wrong I would say we were much too nice.
COURIC: Really?
STEINEM: Because we were trained to be nice and plump pillows. We’ve been much too nice. And the idea of our being threatening doesn’t come from our being threatening, it comes from the idea that a normal male‐female relationship is 70‐30 or 60‐40, so 50‐50 feels threatening. We’ve always been talking about 50‐50.
GREENE: What inspires me and gets me up every morning is the fact that there are more people, young women, men who identify as feminists today than did back in 1970. And that, in and of itself, shows that we are continuing in the right direction. And also the fact that this next generation, actually I see it as an “and” proposition versus the “either/or.” And they are the future leaders; the future heads of corporations; the future media experts. We can all look forward to an opportunity to move away from the combative style to showing that it is all about pro‐equality and it’s not about one side winning over the other.
Editor's note: This interview was lightly edited for continuity and repetitiveness.
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